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Dialogue with Su Zhiliang: Recall the "son of **" who asked "who am I".
The Paper senior reporter Zou Jiawen.
When he first visited Luo Shanshi in 2007, Su Zhiliang noticed a coffin. In the dilapidated earthen house with four walls, Luo Shanxue proudly said that this was what he prepared for his mother's death.
In the winter of 1944, 24-year-old Wei Shaolan was captured by sweeping Japanese troops and devastated in a comfort station in Maling Town, Guangxi. A few months later, she secretly fled home while the Japanese army was unprepared, and found out that she was pregnant. In 1945, Luo Shanxue, a Chinese-Japanese mixed-race child, was born in Lipu, Guangxi. In 2007, with Wei Shaolan's identity made public, Luo Shanxue became "the first public descendant of Japanese soldiers born to victims of China's ** system".
Later, when my mother is gone, if I am not in good health, I will simply drink pesticides and die. Luo Shanxue failed to get married in his life, and his words were sad. Wei Shaolan on the side couldn't listen to it: "This world is so good, you have to set aside this life to eat wild things." ”
This scene was later recorded by director Guo Ke in the documentary "Thirty-two". Since then, Guo Ke has launched the documentary "Twenty-Two", with a box office of 1700 million yuan, creating a box office myth of domestic cinema screening documentaries. The two works also present the victim groups under the "** system" of the Japanese army in front of the wider public.
According to statistics, during the 14 years of Japan's war of aggression against China (1931-1945), about 200,000 or even more women in China were lured and forced by the Japanese army to become sex slaves who vented their sexual desires and destroyed them at will. According to the statistics of the China "** Problem Research Center of Shanghai Normal University", there are 2,050 comfort stations set up by the Japanese army in China alone.
On November 9, 2023, Li Meijin, the last victim of the Japanese army's "** system" in "Twenty-Two", passed away at the age of 98, and only 9 survivors from Chinese mainland were registered in the China Research Center of Shangshi University.
The movie "Twenty-Two" commemorates Wei Shaolan and Luo Shanxue's mother and son through the official Weibo.
A month later, on December 7, Luo Shanxue, who had a rough life, passed away in Lipu, Guangxi, at the age of 79. "With the death of the old man Luo Shanxue, all the victimized old people we photographed have gone to the heavenly ......"Twenty-two" said through the official Weibo.
On the occasion of the 10th National Memorial Day for the Victims of the Nanjing University, The Paper reporter interviewed Su Zhiliang, a professor at Shanghai Normal University and director of China's "** Problem Research Center", who is known as the first person to study China's "** problem.
Since the first contact with the "** problem" in 1991, Su Zhiliang and his wife Chen Lifei have continued to record the stories of the elderly and even paid subsidies out of their own pockets. In 1999, Su Zhiliang founded the "** Problem Research Center" of Shanghai Normal University in China, which systematically researches and assists the "** survivor group" nationwide. Over the course of 32 years, the scholar couple has found more than 300 living survivors.
How does Su Zhiliang recall Luo Shanxue, who has just passed away?In the course of more than 30 years of visiting and researching, how do they deal with such a group?What is there to think about?
The following is a conversation between The Paper and Su Zhiliang].
Luo Shanxue: "Who am I".
problems plague a lifetime.
The Paper: What kind of person is Luo Shanxue in your impression?
Su Zhiliang: I met Luo Shanxue and Wei Shaolan in 2007, when a reporter from the Guilin Evening News discovered their story and contacted me. After listening to the introduction, my wife Chen Lifei and I thought that from both a historical and anthropological point of view, this was a case worth investigating and documenting, so we went there several times. From 2008 to 2010, for three consecutive years, we spent the New Year in Luo Shanxue, every time we went to buy new quilts and sheets, slept in his house, and left things for them when we left.
Wei Shaolan and Luo Shanxue mother and son lunch.
I still remember the first time I went to his house in 2007 and saw that they lived in a mud house. The cupboards were almost falling apart, and there were small cupboards, stoves, farm tools on the side, and a coffin. Luo Shanxue proudly said that he bought this coffin for his mother, saying that he had a wish to send the old man to his death. It's such a scene.
Luo Shanxue has hardly ever read, but he is very polite, kind, and respectful to his mother. He likes to smoke and drink a little wine.
Luo Shanxue is herding ducks.
The Paper: Wei Shaolan passed away in 2019, do you have any impression of her?
Su Zhiliang: In contrast, Wei Shaolan doesn't talk much, and I have the impression that he is a very kind and optimistic old man. Because Wei Shaolan is a Yao ethnic group, she will make up lyrics and sing, and tell her feelings while singing. The song she sang in "Thirty-Two", I told my classmates in college, and everyone must take a good look at the lyrics, which is a portrayal of her sunny outlook on life. Despite all the hardships she had endured, she still looked at the world with kindness.
There is a detail, in "Thirty-two", she has a very classic sentence: "The world is so good, you have to save your life to see it when you eat wild things." She must have told us that for the first time. Luo Shanxue said at the time that when his mother was old and left, if he was not in good health, he would drink pesticides and die, because he felt that he had no offspring. When Wei Shaolan heard this, he said that.
So when Wei Shaolan became seriously ill, I also went to the hospital in Guilin to provide a little assistance, and she had surgery to survive for a while. In 2019, when Wei Shaolan left, I told a doctoral student that I was going to see Grandma Wei off one last time. That was also the last time I saw Luo Shanxue.
In June 2019, the elderly Wei Shaolan passed away, and Professor Su Zhiliang attended the funeral and expressed his condolences to Luo Shanxue.
The Paper: The public knows Wei Shaolan and Luo Shanxue, mainly because of the documentary, from your point of view, what is the typicality of the story of their mother and son?
Su Zhiliang: Luo Shanxue and Wei Shaolan are a very unique case in our more than 30 years of research and research. I have heard similar things in Yunnan and Shanxi, but there is no second one like Luo Shanxue who is willing to stand up.
In Luo Shanxue's life, there were many problems that plagued him, and he had a deep sadness in his heart.
He once asked me, am I a victim?I said that of course you are a victim, a victim of Japan's war of aggression against China. Without this war, there would be no him, and the identity is awkward. When Wei Shaolan fled home from the comfort station, the family found out that she was pregnant, and it was understandable that she was a husband, but he didn't like the child.
Luo Shanxue played war games with children when he was a child, he must have been the one who was a Japanese soldier, and he was beaten with stones. He also felt that his mother had suffered a lot and wanted to repay her, but his ability was very limited.
Because he is a little disabled, his eyes are not very good, and he has such an identity on his back, he has never been able to get married in his life. Despite his mother's company, he always felt lonely. And from childhood to old age, he always felt that the people in the village looked at him differently than others.
Who am I, where did I come from?"For 78 years he had been torturing himself with his soul. Later, when we got acquainted, he suddenly asked me if he would be able to find his biological father if he went to Japan
Therefore, in December 2010, the 10th anniversary of the trial of the "Women's International War Crimes Tribunal" in Tokyo, Japan, it was a civil court. My wife and I paid 20,000 yuan for them to go to Japan, which was the first and only time their mother and son went abroad. When Wei Shaolan gave the complaint hearing, Luo Shanxue suddenly lost control of his emotions and left his seat and knelt down to his mother on the stage until the staff carried him back to his seat.
Wei Shaolan (second from left) and Luo Shanxue (first from left) testify in Tokyo. (Courtesy of Zhu Hong).
On December 7, 2010, at a hearing held at the Peace Museum of War and Violence against Women in Tokyo for the mother and son of Wei Shaolan, a victim of sexual violence against the Japanese army, Wei Shaolan and Luo Shanxue, mother and son, recounted their tragic lives, hugged each other and cried bitterly. (Photo by Zhang Guotong).
I still remember one year during the Spring Festival, we went with them to the grave of Wei Shaolan's husband. Although Luo Shanxue knew that his father didn't like him, he also shed tears and had mixed feelings at the cemetery.
The Paper: Do you still have an impression of the old man Li Meijin, who passed away in November?
Su Zhiliang: Li Meijin is the last image in "Twenty-Two", and the news of her death has been reported by many people, which shows that the society and the country are paying more and more attention to the "** issue."
Li Meijin's children are very filial. My biggest impression of Li Meijin is that the old man is happy all day long. You see the ** photographed, she is all smiling. Laughter is good for life, so life is also long.
With the death of the old man Li Meijin, there are only 9 living survivors of the "** system" registered in our register. I think everyone should know when every old person dies. When the last one leaves, we should have a ceremony - an era has passed, but we Chinese must not forget them.
Open the knot and tell the story.
How hard is the most secret suffering?
The Paper: From 1991 when you came into contact with the "** problem" to the present, how did you find these elderly people and carry out investigations?
Su Zhiliang: Of the 9 survivors currently on the register, 8 of them have been found one by one by our continuous investigation in Hunan in recent years. There are definitely survivors.
At first it was on our own, but then we hired about 60 investigators to help us do it as volunteers across the country for a fee. Some investigators played an unexpected role, such as Sun Weiyu, the former director of the Yichang Municipal Archives Bureau, who contacted me when he retired and took the initiative to investigate their "** situation." Later, he also wrote a proposal to protect the former sites of four comfort stations.
In the ** History Museum of the University of China, every time an old man dies, his ** is covered with a black veil. Surging News reporter Zou Jiawen pictured.
The Great Master of China" ** History Museum, the specific story. Surging News reporter Zou Jiawen pictured.
The investigators helped us understand the information in the local area, made records, and then contacted us, and we judged the information and went to the field together to investigate. Confirmation of survivors, documenting it, is such a process.
During our actual conversation, many times I was not in the room, I turned on the camera, and I went out with the man in the house. My wife, Chen Lifei, was inside, holding the old lady's hand, chatting about family life first, and then talking about the Japanese. It's hard to talk about what happened half a century ago, so I asked the Japanese what season it was when they came, and was the wheat yellow?Planted?How old were you at that time?Then the scenes of history are slowly restored, and some scenes can only be vague.
During the Spring Festival of 2010, Chen Lifei (middle) and Wei Shaolan (right) and Luo Shanxue (left).
Including the fact that we also do a survey of comfort stations. Generally better, the buildings are renovated and have many toilets, like the "freshman salon" in Shanghai. If it is worse, women may be locked up in bunkers and basements, and there are mostly caves in Shanxi and simple shantytowns in Hainan.
The Paper: What are the difficulties in finding them, communicating and confirming their identities?
Su Zhiliang: It took a lot of effort to find the survivors of the victims. Sometimes it seems hopeless, and she may suddenly decide to say it;There may also be miscalculations, in the past era of poverty, some people will say that there may be aid, but we must remain vigilant and rigorous, and there must be circumstantial evidence and historical evidence to be able to prove it. In the past, we have also encountered in the investigation that the local investigator thought that the old man was the victim, but was rejected by us after the field investigation, several times.
There are also many cases where there is no result, and I share a story. In the 90s of the last century, in Jiangwan, Shanghai, neighbors said that an old lady was a victim. We invited the old lady out and didn't talk at home. She is very cultivated, and said that during the war, her family was damaged and her house was bombed, but there was no such thing, and she must have made a mistake. Later, when I sent her out, she said, "Some things have passed and rotted in my stomach." This sentence illustrates the knot in her heart.
It is very difficult to open their hearts one by one and ask them to tell about their most secret sufferings. Two of the nine survivors on the register have asked not to disclose their names and likenesses, and we will obscure the information, but the cost of the assistance will be revealed.
In 2013, the Chengmai County CPPCC took a group photo when visiting the survivors of Fu Meiju, Li Meijin and Wang Zhifeng.
The Paper: Will there be any other resistance during the investigation?
Su Zhiliang: Yes. In the 90s of the last century, especially in the countryside, some old people said that people thought I was dirty, and I felt dirty myself. The traditional concept in the countryside is that if you are **, no one in the village will marry you. Because of this, an old man married from Yu County, Shanxi Province to a peasant family in Yangqu County, and her husband looked down on her when he found out about it. The first time we went to her house, her son was also very repulsed, saying that it was difficult for future generations to accept this matter.
The descendants of the old man have beaten the investigator out, saying that you should not slander my mother, and there are also those who the old man will not admit until he dies. I think one of the most important factors in this is that our society has not openly called on everyone to tell this history and teach everyone to look at it correctly. We should openly tell them that it's not you who is dirty, it's the Japs. To soothe her and help her, otherwise there will always be a shadow in her heart.
Many of the survivors, second and third generations, will feel that this event is stressing them. So in a few years, my graduate students may be able to start researching the mindset of the second generation of victim survivors, looking at what they have inherited and what they have avoided, and what the memory of war atrocities is in today's state.
Map of comfort stations around the world The Paper reporter Zou Jiawen Figure.
The Paper: I can also feel that every time I investigate and interview, it is difficult to avoid secondary harm to them.
So Zhiliang: We've been thinking about this for a long time. Mainly by communication. At first, it is very difficult for the elderly to speak, so we generally hope to find out the facts of the victimization the first time, and the second time we go is to visit and condole, and not to talk about the victimization.
We know that every time the old man speaks, it is like he is dead. So sometimes the news ** wants to interview the elderly, I hope to say that the facts of the victimization they check on the Internet, don't always ask the elderly about these injuries, that is the deep trauma of the soul, and when the scar is revealed, it bleeds.
Even for us, my wife has cried a lot twice in the past, and it is too uncomfortable to go out and say that you should not call me after this kind of investigation. When I thought of Luo Shanxue, my wife also wanted to cry, feeling too bitter. On the day Luo Shanxue died, my wife wrote a passage saying that he was finally freed from the suffering of the world.
The Paper: At present, there are only 9 elderly people left in the register, and the real number should be more than that.
Su Zhiliang: When I went to Seoul this time, I said that in China, including other subjects, there are more than 300 victims, which is more than that of South Korea. There are 239 people registered in South Korea, and this number is calculated by the efforts of South Korea from ** to enterprises to groups.
We speculate that there are more than 200,000 victims in China, but now it seems that there are only a lot more, because we are investigating more and more cases and comfort stations. According to the survey of comfort stations, we are now counting and extrapolating one province at a time, and there are still a few provinces that have not yet been finalized. There are at least 2,050 comfort stations set up by the Japanese army in China that I can now announce. We know more than 300 survivors, and if more people further expose the atrocities of the Japanese army, there may be more than 3,000.
This year, graduates give to the school.
"The Lady of Peace statue offered a row of flowers.
The Paper: How do you and the society care for the surviving elderly?
Su Zhiliang: Before 2000, we were giving living expenses. In the 90s of the last century, once I went to Shanxi and gave an old man 1,200 yuan a year. These old people used to tell me that without your aid, they would have died a long time ago.
Later, the center was established, and we started to send it to the present in 2000, and we used up about 10 million in 24 years. The ** of these money, at the beginning, our center raised donations in the east and west, and later after the release of "Twenty-two", there was a good box office, and the director Guo Ke discussed with me and took out 10 million to make a "special support", and the living expenses and medical expenses of the survivors and the elderly can be reimbursed. Next week, our New Year's condolences will begin, to 9 elderly people to send living expenses for the first half of next year, 10,000 yuan per person, each of which we will also send Spring Festival couplets and New Year's goods, not only to the old ladies, there may also be some second-generation old people.
In the Spring Festival of 2009, Su Zhiliang was among Wei Shaolan and Luo Shan.
The Paper: Are you still doing research work recently?
So Zhiliang: Actually, I often reflect on the past 30 years, we can actually do better, but we don't have manpower. There are just two teachers, graduating students, and one volunteer after another. Originally, we just wanted to make a record of history, but later we healed their souls and did the work of care and assistance, which was a lot of work.
I'm still doing research on this recently. My wife and I are going to complete a set of more than 1 million words that will reflect this history more completely. It has been written, and now it is being revised and improved, and it is hoped that by 2025, it will be launched in a big year of the victory of the Anti-Japanese War. We have published a single book in ** collection and multiple Chinese languages before, and we hope to promote the results to the world and let more people know.
** Voice" project. Surging News reporter Zou Jiawen pictured.
The Paper: With so much insistence on research and insistence on speaking out, do you think in the final analysis, what do we need to learn from "** history?".
Su Zhiliang: The history of a city and a country is like a kaleidoscope. Taking Shanghai as an example, Shanghai has Jiangnan culture, Shanghai culture, and red culture, but there are also many personal encounters, which are major events between China and Japan, and even major events in the history of world civilization. For example, the "First Salon" in Shanghai was the first comfort station set up by the Japanese army in Asia, and it is our responsibility to study and then protect it. We can't be too utilitarian, only record and remember the good things, and those negative things may need to be remembered.
Like these old people, after the reform and opening up, they generally lived a relatively good life, but in that war years, countless ordinary people died out silently.
Located at Shanghai Normal University, "** Statue of the Girl of Peace." Surging News reporter Zou Jiawen pictured.
The history of the past is the past, but the past and the present are linked to the future, and we do historical records in the hope that our future generations will not forget. A country, from the first to the youngest, must have a responsibility and learn lessons from history, which is the biggest purpose of what I insist on doing. Do you want the old people to get an apology and compensation from Japan when they are alive?From a practical point of view, it is basically impossible.
Nowadays, people are paying more and more attention to such groups, which shows the progress of society. I would like to share one thing. On the lawn of the School of Humanities of Shanghai Normal University, there is a group of "** Peace Maiden Statues, this year's graduation season, the steps of the statue are lined with flowers, which are sent by our graduates. The students said that this history has accompanied them throughout their college life, and they are leaving the school and should come to offer flowers for this statue and this history.
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