Inscription:On the evening of November 11, 2023, the 169th issue of Peking University Development Institute [Langrun Gezheng] was held simultaneously online and offline, this event was hosted by the think tank and communication center of Peking University Development Institute, and invited Zhao Yaohui, Boya Distinguished Professor of Peking University and Professor of Economics of Peking University, Lei Xiaoyan, Boya Distinguished Professor of Peking University, Secretary of the Party Committee and Director of the Academic Committee of the National Development Institute, and Changjiang Scholar of the Ministry of Education, and Huang Wei, Young Scholar of Liberal Arts of Peking University and tenured associate professor of economics of the National Development Institute, to discuss the "2023 Nobel Prize, Labor Economics and Modern Women's Development". This article is based on the comments of teacher Lei Xiaoyan and the dialogue content of the three teachers. Wang Xianqing, director of the Communication Center of Peking University Development Institute, moderated the dialogue.
Wang Xianqing:In recent years, China's fertility rate has shown a precipitous downward trend. Is this a normal phenomenon in the current stage of economic development? For example, when the per capita GDP reaches 10,000 yuan, the education level of women increases, and the university graduation rate increases, does this phenomenon naturally occur, or is there some unique Chinese factor behind it?
Zhao Yaohui:I don't think the economy is the only factor. At present, various traditional concepts still discriminate against women, but compared with the post-70s and post-60s, the post-80s and post-90s women have changed greatly, and their knowledge, education level and workplace ability have surpassed men. Women with higher education in the United States have been choosing careers over families under severe gender discrimination as early as 100 years ago, but Chinese women have always chosen families, even women with higher education, indicating that the pressure imposed on them by traditional culture is very high. However, the post-80s and post-90s generations have entered a new stage, they are no longer bound by tradition, and they feel that they have to have a family in the face of gender inequality. This clash of traditional ideas with modern women's abilities and values is particularly evident in this generation, and I believe this is the main reason for the decline in female fertility.
Lei Xiaoyan:I agree with Mr. Zhao that not only economic factors, but also socio-economic development has brought about many other factors that have collectively led to a decline in fertility. However, it is not normal for the fertility rate to fall so low. In the United States, there is also a trend towards declining fertility, but GDP per capita has not fallen as low as we have at a similar stage. Of course, the family planning policy has accelerated the decline in our fertility rate. In addition, the conflicts and costs that exist in society are also one of the important reasons for the rapid decline of our fertility rate, which has fallen to a very low level.
Zhao Yaohui:Indeed, the region with the lowest fertility rates in the world is currently in the Eastern Cultural Sphere, including Chinese mainland, South Korea, Singapore, and China's Taiwan and Hong Kong. The common denominator lies in the prevalence of discrimination against women and masculinity in Eastern cultures. We should be fully aware of the impact of this on women's family choices and address them.
Huang Wei:I also agree with Mr. Zhao. Declining fertility does correlate with economic trends, but this does not mean that economic growth necessarily leads to declining fertility. Some studies have found that fertility rises when people's economic well-being improves, suggesting that people are still willing to have children and love them. This proves that there is no direct correlation between economic growth and declining fertility, but that two trends are seen at the same time. For example, the United States currently has a relatively high level of economy and a fertility rate that is not low, while some European countries have a higher level of economic development than East Asian countries, but their fertility levels are not low.
Historical and global cross-sectional data show that the relationship between economic growth and fertility is not necessarily correlated. In fact, there is a positive relationship between economic growth and the rise of women. Historically, many economists have done a lot of research on this. In recent years, the causal relationship between economic growth and the rise of women has gradually emerged, but the causal relationship with fertility is still relatively weak.
Zhao Yaohui:The main thing is the improvement of women's education.
Wang Xianqing:Why is it that in China, East Asia, and especially in Confucian culture, the fertility rate of women is relatively low, and the situation is relatively serious? Chinese women have traditionally attached great importance to the family, is it because they have awakened and become independent after receiving education, so they think that not having children is one of the important signs of their awakening and independence?
Zhao Yaohui:"I have the right to choose not to get married", this is something that would have been almost unimaginable a hundred years ago. Because if they don't get married, they won't be able to survive in society. However, the situation is different now. Nowadays, women can live and work independently and no longer need to rely on another person to survive, which is closely related to the fact that women are more educated than men.
Wang Xianqing:Huang Wei took some of Golding's courses during his time at Harvard, can you share these courses and the impact Golding has had on you?
Huang Wei:Golding is usually a very relaxed person, she speaks very slowly, and the same is true in class. She has a little hobby, which is that she is particularly fond of dogs. As I understand it, Golding should not have had children. She had previously had a big golden retriever and stayed with him until he died, and then she had another golden retriever. Sometimes she would take her dog to class, and I think her dog must have listened to her many classes and was an academic dog.
In addition, my job search is about the relationship between China's family planning policy and the rise of women, and the impact of the contraceptive pill that Golding wrote about on American women. She paid special attention to my ** and revised my ** word for word, which had a great impact on me. It is rare for a Harvard professor like her to revise a Ph.D. student's ** so seriously and rigorously.
Golding's husband, Lawrence Katz, was the editor-in-chief of the Quarterly Journal of Economics (*e) and a very prominent labor economist. Katz has served as the magazine's editor-in-chief since 1992 and has held a very long tenure. A picture on the door of the school's office shows the meteoric increase in citations to articles in the Quarterly Journal of Economics since Lawrence Katz became editor-in-chief. The couple has achieved high academic achievements, and their contributions to scholarship can be said to have reached the Nobel Prize level. They often discuss academic issues together and also run a course together. They are a very good couple, both academically and in life.
Wang Xianqing:I would like to ask Mr. Zhao, you mentioned that the United States is now entering the fifth stage, that is, many people have achieved a balance between family and career. In China, more and more women are choosing not to marry or have children, and are focusing on pursuing their careers. How do you understand this phenomenon?
Zhao Yaohui:In the United States, although there is a phenomenon of women giving up work and returning to their families after giving birth, on the whole, American women are more likely than their predecessors to balance their careers and families at the same time. In China, more women are choosing families than women in the United States, and this phenomenon has continued to this day, and although there is a certain trend change, the overall situation has not changed in absolute terms.
American women have struggled for decades or even centuries to find ways to balance career and family — the first stage is having to choose between career and family. The second stage was in the 20-30s of the last century, when women were not allowed to work after marriage, so they could only work for a short time before marriage. In the third stage, women take care of the family first and return to their careers when their children grow up. Although these women have long careers and can work until retirement, they also miss out on many opportunities in the workplace because of their families. The women of the fourth stage witnessed the unfortunate experience of their mothers, and they decided to develop their careers first and postpone childbearing. Delaying childbearing has caused some women to be unable to have children naturally and missing out on the opportunity to have children. Now in the fifth stage, American women are beginning to be able to balance family and career, and with assisted reproduction and egg freezing, technology allows women to better balance the two.
In China, women have been passively marrying and having children, including those with a university degree. After the 50s of the last century, women were mobilized by the state to participate in the work on a large scale. Working women in China face a double burden, and they are disproportionately affected by traditional attitudes, as they come home after a long day of work to do housework, take care of their children and husbands.
In order to help working women take care of their children, in the era of the planned economy, the workplace provided a nursery school, and the child could be sent to the nursery a few months after the end of maternity leave. However, nurseries were largely abolished after the 2000 state-owned enterprise reform, but by inertia, women still do not quit their jobs to return home in order to have children.
In the absence of childcare services, women tend to choose flexible careers when choosing careers, for example, in the 90s, there were many female teachers in domestic universities, which is difficult to understand for Americans, because in the United States, professorship is a highly competitive position. But at that time in China, the level of university salaries was very low, and many male teachers chose to go to sea, but for women, it was convenient to take care of the family without having to sit in class. However, light jobs often mean low income and slower career progression.
Lei Xiaoyan:The trend of women choosing to go home and not work was just mentioned, and this issue actually needs to be looked at from two perspectives. On the one hand, women voluntarily choose to go home, and on the other hand, they are forced to go home. In the early years, they were more forced to stay at home to care for their children, but now they may be more willing to return home.
For women to voluntarily choose to go home and give up work to take care of their children, at least two conditions need to be met: the first is that society treats housework and child care as the same as workplace work, respects housework, and respects women's contributions in the family; The second is that women at home have no worries and will not worry about not working and will cause a gap with their husbands or even lose their marriage. Only if these two conditions are met can a woman voluntarily choose to stay at home, concentrate on raising her children, and feel happy, and such a choice will not be seen as a punishment.
Wang Xianqing:In his comments, Mr. Lei mentioned that Chinese women are developing very fast in childbirth, parenting, education and other aspects. But in this fast-paced process, what are we doing better and what are we doing poorly, and where we need to reinvent our culture in particular?
Lei Xiaoyan:Chinese women have indeed made significant progress in education, and this is one of the things we do better. The rapid development of women's education has allowed them to acquire human capital comparable to that of men.
However, the question of whether women will be able to reap the same rewards after the rise in education is a question that needs to be further considered. Despite the fact that women have received the same level of education and human capital development, they still face gender inequality in the workplace. Women are often affected by gender discrimination and workplace biases, and it is difficult for them to receive equal opportunities and rewards, which is something we need to work to change.
Questions from the audience:I would like to ask about reverse sexism. Reverse gender discrimination refers to the discrimination of men against women, which leads to the fact that men are discriminated against in certain social phenomena. For example, in many countries, only men are required to join the military, while women do not have to. Reverse sexism has to some extent taken a toll on men. For example, the teacher mentioned that boys have to earn milk powder money, and if women's wages are higher, then to a certain extent, it can reduce the pressure on men to support their families and be more beneficial to men. Is this a problem caused by the stereotype that men are more vulnerable to women, or is there a deeper reason? Or is the question itself a false proposition?
Huang Wei:Actually, I think sexism and the issue you mentioned are two different things. Personally, I think that discrimination in academic research is different from discrimination in real life, and discrimination in academic research refers to another level of phenomenon. For example, in statistics, we might see a negatively significant or positively significant result and define it as discrimination. And the discrimination you mentioned is more like discrimination in real life.
Personally, I don't think anything has to be done by a guy or a girl. Many times, men and women should negotiate to solve problems equally. This introduces another concept – comparative advantage. Whoever is better suited to do something should do it, which can increase efficiency. For example, I am more careless, while my wife is more attentive. When the kids weren't dressed warmly, I might forget to zip up, and when I got home, my wife would say why didn't you zip it, what if you had a cold, and I didn't notice it.
I believe that the division of labor in society arises because of the needs of economic development, and it makes things more efficient. The same is true in the family, where the division of labor is carried out according to the characteristics of each person. In this way, we can eliminate discrimination through the division of labor, because we should not have discrimination, but we should make the whole family, the whole society more efficient and loving. I think that's the right direction.
Lei Xiaoyan:The situation you are talking about is most likely due to a different division of labor. In our discussion, we are concerned that differences due to sex alone are called discrimination under the same conditions. If this is not the case, it is due to other factors, such as different levels of education. Teacher Zhao and I once did an article on gender perception differences, and found that among the elderly in China, women's cognitive level is low, which is very different from the international situation. Because when measured internationally using the same cognitive indicators, there is little difference between men and women, and even women have a higher level of cognition. We went to the reasons for this and found that one of the reasons was the difference in the level of education, not gender discrimination. What is the reason for this difference in education level? Going back to the bottom of the matter, it turns out that it is the fact that boys and girls are not treated fairly in education during childhood, and this can be attributed to discrimination. For many things, we can't simply find a reason for the results on the data, but we need to conduct scientific analysis.
Questions from the audience:Ms. Zhao mentioned that one of the main barriers to modern women's participation in the workplace is the opportunity cost of participating in the labor force, especially in the context of the difficult employment situation. Employers may be more inclined to hire men because they don't need to think about maternity leave. This is the biggest opportunity cost for women. Although the state has introduced some policies, such as extending maternity leave, which appear to be for the sake of women, in fact it has made it more expensive for women to participate in the labor force, and cheaper for men. Childbearing is a common matter for both husband and wife, so how can men bear the same costs as women from an economic point of view? How can women get equal job opportunities with men when they are looking for jobs?
Huang Wei:In the literature, we can see an evaluation of policies such as maternity leave. Sometimes, these policies are meant to protect one part of the population, but in fact can cause harm to others. For example, the protection of persons with disabilities stipulates that wages cannot be lower than a certain standard, with the result that fewer and fewer people are willing to hire people with disabilities. In addition, raising the minimum wage may appear to protect low-wage earners, but in fact more and more companies are reluctant to hire low-wage workers because they have to pay higher costs.
With regard to maternity leave policy, many scholars have discussed this issue, but there is no general consensus yet. With regard to the extension of maternity leave, it has proved beneficial in some countries and not so well in others. In China, it has been suggested that women should be forced to take maternity leave for the same length as men. We need to understand the length of maternity leave objectively and truthfully, and this answer will change with the times. I believe that the United States has answered this question differently in the past five phases. Therefore, it remains to be seen how maternity leave should be arranged in the future.
Zhao Yaohui:This question relates to how to reduce the punishment for childbirth, also known as the maternal penalty, that is, the loss of employment opportunities and income for women because of childbirth. After all, childbearing is a woman's responsibility, and men cannot replace it, which is a fact that we cannot avoid.
Having a baby is not a problem in itself, because until having a baby, a woman can work all the time and have no physical problems. The question is whether a woman will devalue in the workplace after giving birth, whether she will become unimportant, and whether she will be a burden on employers. Our policies should focus on how to reduce this burden, so that women can be balanced and companies are willing to hire them. For example, there is a shortage of childcare services for 0-3 year olds, and during this period, a woman may need to spend a lot of energy taking care of children, finding a babysitter and other troublesome things, which has a great impact on her work. If childcare services are provided so that she can send her child to daycare immediately after maternity leave, it is more likely for mothers who are pursuing a career to maintain their careers.
Therefore, we should focus on allowing women to minimize the negative impact of childbearing on them, so that they have a way to balance work and childbearing responsibilities, which is the most important thing.
Finishing: He Youxi |Editor: Wang Xianqing Bai Yao.
Related Reading: Zhao Yaohui: Women's career and family choices.
Huang Wei: The cost of childbirth in China.
*Playback】Zhao Yaohui + Lei Xiaoyan + Huang Wei: 2023 Nobel Prize, Labor Economics and Modern Women's Development.