Abstract: On the afternoon of the 6th, Wang Kunpeng, vice president of Telai New Energy Co., Ltd., Guan Yufan, managing director of Weilai Capital, Hu Dongwen, assistant to the president of Tailing Group, Xu Xiaoming, general manager of Jiangxi Anchi New Energy Technology, and Hu Mingxiang, chairman of Shenzhen Pangu Naxiang New Energy Co., Ltd., were invited to participate in the interactive session of the summitThe topic was discussed.
Battery "Davos" - Battery Network on December 10 (Chen Yu Zhang Qian reported from Shenzhen, Guangdong).From December 5th to 6th, the 10th China (Shenzhen) Battery New Energy Industry International Summit Forum was held in Shenzhen, China, a global battery industry event, ABEC 2023. The forum was hosted by the Zhongguancun New Battery Technology Innovation Alliance and the Battery "Davos" (ABEC) Organizing Committee, and co-sponsored by the Battery Network, Hairong Network, I Love Tram Network, Energy Finance Network, and the Battery 100 Association.
Focusing on the theme of "competition or competition and cooperation, discovering the path and power of industrial breakthrough", this summit will achieve precise docking, value dialogue, and resource integration in the exchange and sharing, and jointly explore the breakthrough path and transformation power of industrial breakthrough innovation and steady growth.
On the afternoon of the 6th, Wang Kunpeng, vice president of Telai New Energy Co., Ltd., Guan Yufan, managing director of Weilai Capital, Hu Dongwen, assistant to the president of Tailing Group, Xu Xiaoming, general manager of Jiangxi Anchi New Energy Technology, and Hu Mingxiang, chairman of Shenzhen Pangu Naxiang New Energy Co., Ltd., were invited to participate in the interactive session of the summitThe topic was discussed. Battery Network (micro: mybattery) excerpted some of the wonderful views of the interactive guests for readers.
Wu Hui, General Manager of the Research Department of Yiwei Economic Research Institute and President of China Battery Industry Research InstituteModerator (Wu Hui, General Manager of the Research Department of Yiwei Economic Research Institute and President of China Battery Industry Research Institute):Before starting the discussion, we know that the current new energy vehicles themselves are more than 30%, and the development of the energy storage industry has also entered the stage of large-scale volume in the past two years. In this context, many new technologies and new business models are gradually emerging, such as fast charging of electric vehicles, high voltage, including battery replacement of electric vehicles, these models have been very mature in China. In addition, this business model of integrated optical charging and storage has also been widely used in many scenarios. Around this topic, in this context, how to develop the new model and new business format in the next step?The guests invited today are also very distinctive, representing the exploration of different fields.
Wang Kunpeng, vice president of Telai New Energy Co., LtdWang Kunpeng:With the large-scale development of new energy electric vehicles in China, especially the sales volume as of the end of October this year has exceeded that of last year, the requirements for the construction of charging infrastructure network are getting higher and higher. Frankly speaking, the convenience and efficiency of the charging network will greatly promote the popularization and development of new energy vehicles, otherwise it will be an obstacle. In 2014, Telai took the lead in entering the field of new energy vehicle charging network, and has established the operation system of the largest and strongest charging network in China. We believe that electric vehicles, as a mobile energy storage carrier, although there are other ways to supplement energy, but charging is still the most economical, the most popular, from the perspective of infrastructure construction, the infrastructure that can best support the development of new energy vehicles on a large scale. Especially since last year, the sales of new energy vehicles have increased sharply, and the construction of new energy vehicle charging facilities has also ushered in a boom, and the equipment and operation mode invested in the early stage are also constantly iterating and updating. This year, for special calls, there have been a lot of application achievements in the construction of "optical storage, charging, discharge and inspection" integrated new energy microgrid.
According to data, as of November this year, in Jiangsu, Zhejiang, Shanghai, Yangtze River Delta and other areas where new energy vehicles are developing rapidly, there have been nearly 300 new energy microgrid construction projects in areas where new energy photovoltaic power generation and equipment supporting construction are relatively rapid. These projects are not only in the public charging stations, such as some high-speed service areas in Jiangsu, Zhejiang enterprises and institutions in the parks, have a good realization of the use of solar photovoltaic power generation to directly charge new energy vehicles, and at the same time, with the help of new energy vehicle energy storage and the use of cascade batteries, the waste of wind and photovoltaic power generation that may be wasted at ordinary times can be stored, and the power consumption can be reversed to the industrial and park power grid during peak power consumption. When the scale of new energy vehicles increases, this will form a new business model. Charging service providers have also become operators of new energy in enterprise parks, for enterprises and institutions, with energy operation, the return on investment cycle will be greatly shortened, and at the same time, it will play a great role in energy conservation and emission reduction in the entire park. We have seen that many large-scale parks have optical storage and charging equipment, and there is also a synergistic effect in industrial investment, which will greatly improve the overall operational efficiency of these projects for investors, including local new infrastructure and investment platforms. Coupled with technology iteration and product upgrades, like Telai also released a group charge 4 in September this year0 equipment, "saving and powerful", can not only save a lot of land, construction time and equipment operation and maintenance costs, but also through strong power output and flexible allocation, so that more vehicles can enjoy the convenient services brought by the charging network platform first.
The above are all important achievements in the construction of the charging network. So far, according to incomplete statistics, special calls also account for the vast majority of the construction of new energy microgrid projects across the country.
Wu Hui:Wang Kunpeng: Mr. Wang talked about special calls, especially in the fields of charging, photovoltaic and energy storage, and microgrids, and has made some explorations.
Yesterday's meeting talked about the battery swap mode, including today's talk about the battery swap of electric ships, and also mentioned that the battery swap needs to be promoted by the national industrial chain ecological enterprises, but at present, Weilai has been taking the route of battery swapping in this area and has done a lot of work
Guan Yufan, Managing Director of NIO CapitalGuan Yufan:NIO Capital is a market-oriented professional investment institution initiated by NIO. My role is mainly responsible for the investment in new energy, including batteries, battery materials, battery operation, charging and swapping, and echelon utilization. Our investment is not limited to new energy vehicles and industrial chains, but also in photovoltaics and energy storage.
We invested in a commercial vehicle company, as well as cloud fast charging. In terms of energy storage, we have also invested in leading energy storage companies in China.
From the very beginning of its founding, NIO has resolutely taken the route of battery swapping. But battery swapping and charging are not contradictory, Zeng Shizhe also mentioned here yesterday that Weilai is rechargeable and replaceable, because after the label of battery swapping is too sufficient, many people think that Weilai's car cannot be charged.
In fact, NIO has always focused on recharging, swapping, and upgrading. There are many benefits of battery replacement, for car owners, one of the most obvious benefits, the time of the entire energy supply can be shortened, now our country's new energy vehicles have gradually shifted from subsidy driven to product driven, when we buy new energy vehicles, it is not that there is a large subsidy or calculate the whole life cycle is cheaper than oil cars to buy trams, but the driving experience and intelligence of trams are indeed better than traditional oil vehicles. There is a very big benefit of battery replacement, many car owners will say "really fragrant" after using it, its biggest advantage is in summer, winter, rain, snow, in the weather is very bad, do not need to get out of the car, you can be very elegant in the process of replenishing energy.
In addition, the cost of its use is reduced. NIO has promoted the mode of separation of vehicles and electricity, and if consumers buy a car, NIO will issue two invoices: one for the vehicle and one for the battery. For passenger car owners, for example, the battery is required to be cycled 3,000 times and used for 8 years. For users, the mileage of a year may be 5,000-10,000 kilometers, and everyone basically goes home every week. If it is fully charged, it may only be once a week, but it is 50 times a year, so the whole life cycle is only three or four hundred times. For the average consumer, 70% of the assets bought are "wasted". Another is the use of the scenario is that for many domestic consumers, the daily demand is thirty or forty kilometers of commuting, and now consumers are less and less anxious about mileage. But consumers will also ask, what if I open from Shenzhen to Beijing, and open to **?In fact, there is no need to pay 100% of the cost for 1% of the demand.
Another benefit of NIO is that it can lease batteries on demand. Most of the owners who buy NIO vehicles now initially choose to buy batteries. When the owner has a long battery life demand, you can rent 100 kWh or 150 kWh battery per day, if you usually rent a 150 kWh battery, it may be a waste. So the whole experience and cost is very consumer-friendly.
On-demand battery leasing allows car owners to own a car at a low costFor car companies, it is possible to have ownership of the battery. When it comes to **, a big problem is the ** of scrap. For the best enterprises, whether it is a car company or a battery company, after the battery is sold, the ownership of the battery is not there. The company's channels are varied, and the dismantling of batteries is also non-standard. If we have unified resources, we have been studying in-situ repair and unified automatic dismantling, which can only be completed when the raw materials are determined and scaled.
Therefore, for NIO, it has the ownership of most of the batteries, and in the long run, the cost of recycled batteries in the future, the wasted resources and lost resources, plus the processing costs, will not be affected by raw materials, which is a long-term effect.
In addition, now they are talking about fast charging, and ultra-fast charging and battery swapping are not contradictory. Overcharging technology can also be used in the battery swap station, which can reduce the inventory of backup batteries. To put it simply, a battery may take half an hour or an hour to be fully charged, and now the backup battery may be fully charged in ten to twenty minutes.
A lot of energy supplement, everyone depends on the scene, not that a single battery swap or charging can solve all the problems. Suppose you arrive at a rest area and there is still 20% of the battery left, you choose to change the battery, go to the bathroom in five minutes, and then change the battery. But if there is still sixty or seventy percent of this power left, it will be more embarrassing, and you will also complete the battery replacement in the last bathroom. In the construction of charging stations, NIO also adheres to the route of energy replenishment in the main engine factory, but charging and battery swapping are parallel.
Of course, the investment in front-end fixed assets is too high, and we are slowly looking for alliances from major OEMs, one is to standardize battery packs or protocols, and share the investment in infrastructure together. Even in the field of supercharging, the three major car companies have cooperated with Tesla, and the same is true for battery swapping. NIO recently announced its cooperation with Changan and Geely, and will continue to cooperate with several other domestic and foreign OEMs, only in this way can we avoid the waste of public resources and improve the consumer experience.
Wu Hui:We know that NIO has a layout in both charging and battery swapping. At that time, the battery swap occurred because the battery charging speed was relatively slow at that time, and the battery cost was relatively high. If with the advancement of technology, the entire 4C or even higher rate rechargeable battery appears, and the charging is completed within ten minutes, and the battery cost is also decreasing, then does this have an impact on the advantages of battery replacement?
Guan Yufan:Let me share my thoughts on battery swapping and charging from an industry perspective. I think battery swapping and charging are complementary. When the charging speed becomes faster, it can actually reduce the inventory cost of the battery swap station. At the same time, the battery swap station itself is an energy storage station, which can release energy externally. I've seen supercharging stations before, and there's no way to expand them, so I put two containers next to them, which are much larger than battery swap stations, which is more interesting. "Fast charging" means a large current, which generates a lot of heat, which in some ways shortens battery life.
In the case of battery replacement, we maintain the battery in a unified environment, and at the same time carry out continuous quality inspection and repair of the battery, which will extend the service life of the battery in the long run. The battery in our country is generally 8 years, and we hope to extend the use time of a certain battery to 13 years, which is actually a reduction in cost for vehicle companies.
For users, if they buy out the battery, they will most likely choose a large battery because they are worried about the battery life of long-distance journeys. But for consumers who change batteries, they can use it on demand.
Another benefit of battery swapping for consumers is that, for example, a consumer bought a car last year, and the initial range was assumed to be 600 km, which is reduced to 580 km this year and possibly to 550 km next year – where the attenuation is determined by battery performance.
However, if the battery is replaced, such as using a battery of the same size, the range can be stabilized for a certain period of time. In addition, if consumers wish to upgrade their batteries, they can achieve a range of 600 km last year, 650 km this year, and 700 km next year. This is another benefit that comes with battery swapping.
If the battery** continues to decline and the technology continues to improve, the consumer experience will continue to improve. In the past, we often talked about software upgrades, and in the future, for consumers, hardware can also be upgraded. The development of fast charging technology and battery swapping technology is a mutually beneficial role and a good improvement for consumers' experience.
Wu Hui:The application of battery swapping in cars is still in a relatively early stage, and everyone is exploring new business models, but a lot has been done in battery swapping stations and electric two-wheeled vehicles. We have seen a lot of takeaways and tower battery swaps, which already have a good business model and are profitable. Next, please ask Mr. Hu Dongwen Hu, as Tailing, a relatively large two-wheeled production enterprise in the country, to introduce to us what you have done in this regard
Hu Dongwen, assistant to the president of Tailing GroupHu Dongwen:Tailing is mainly engaged in the field of electric two-wheeled vehicles and tricycles, and its current production and sales rank third in the industry, and it is expected that there will be tens of millions of production and sales this year. When it comes to battery swapping in the field of electric two-wheelers, there is a history of battery swapping for more than six years so far, and there are not many tracks that have really precipitated and continued to live for more than four years from hundreds to now. However, the enterprises represented by "China Tower" are currently relatively successful in the field of battery swapping. In the field of battery swapping of electric two-wheeled vehicles, the earliest application is the to B-end represented by takeaway riders, which needs to be quickly replenished, so it requires battery replacement, which also brings the adaptation needs of batteries, charging and swapping cabinets, and electric vehicles. At present, there is still no unified standard for the entire industry, and it needs to be further promoted in terms of size and communication protocol. On the basis of to B, in the past two years, companies that have also been born to C have done well, such as "Dudu battery swap".
If electric vehicles are a "big tree industry", electric two-wheelers are more like a "small industry", with the characteristics of "small, wide and deep". "Small" means that each car is a small energy storage battery, each battery is at least about 1 kWh, the mainstream is 1-2 kWh, and the high-speed electric motorcycle is about 4 kWh. "Wide" means that its application scenarios are very wide, from to b to c, and there are about 3 at presentThe number of 500 million two-wheeled electric vehicles means that there are at least 3500 million batteries are small energy storage devices. "Deep" is the network that goes deep into the family, into the details of each terminal of the society, express delivery, takeaway, these to B users, all go deep into the family. From this point of view, the application scenarios are so broad and deep. In fact, there is a strong demand in the field of shared electric vehicles, because the charging of shared electric vehicles is a charging factory, which will be charged centrally, and these fields are worthy of further digging by colleagues.
One of today's speakers is particularly impressive to me - he listed four elements of batteries, and the fourth one is safer. In particular, he added: In my personal opinion, safer should be the number one priority. I couldn't agree more!Because in the past in the field of electric two-wheeled vehicles, most of the spontaneous combustion and first-class safety accidents occurred from the inferior batteries used in echelons and the safety accidents caused by batteries made by informal enterprises. If the whole industry is in a more standardized operation, the cascade utilization of batteries is truly managed, and effectively reduce the spontaneous combustion and safety accidents represented by lithium batteries, which is something that the whole society is concerned about and looks forward to.
I would like to take this opportunity to call on the industry to pay more attention to the battery safety issues in the electric two-wheeler industry, and hope to promote and improve them together.
Wu Hui:We talk about the downstream demand for lithium batteries, the growth expectation of automobiles and energy storage, in fact, two-wheeled vehicles are really a big market. We know that the proportion of lithium battery is less than 20%, and due to the rise in the cost of lithium battery last year, lead-acid has returned to account for a higher proportion. With the decline in the cost of lithium batteries, the penetration rate of lithium batteries will gradually increase in the charging and battery replacement of two-wheeled vehicles.
Hu Dongwen:The soaring application of lithium batteries in electric two-wheelers is the implementation of the new national standard, which limits new electric two-wheelers to 55 kilograms. Subsequently, due to safety accidents and the rise in the cost of lithium batteries, it has become a phenomenon of lithium to lead in the market for consumers and at the application level. With the decline in the cost of lithium batteries, coupled with battery leasing, from the integration of vehicle and electricity to the separation of vehicle and electricity, there is a business model for battery swapping at the level of To C, which also needs the participation of friends in industrial chain finance, which may be more popular. Indeed, there is no need to spend 29 yuan a month to rent a set of batteries. After the optimization of the entire business model, from the perspective of safety and the popularization and application of lithium batteries, it will be more widely used in scenarios and in the broad market.
Wu Hui:The first three are all using batteries, and the real producer of batteries is Xu Xiaoming and Xu of Anchi Technology, who have been doing this for many years, including making a lot of achievements in large storage. From the perspective of battery companies, Mr. Xu said that we will not simply sell batteries in the future, but also how to be more deeply involved in the process of integration of optical storage, charging and replacement in energy storage
Xu Xiaoming, general manager of Jiangxi Anchi New Energy TechnologyXu Xiaoming:On this issue, the first point is to talk about the changes in the demand for batteries for charging and swapping, and also talk about the views on charging and swapping itself.
For charging and battery replacement, the current hot topics, such as the 4C super-rechargeable battery and fast-charging battery released by CATL, 4C, everyone simply calculates the account, basically from 20% to 80%, and the time is less than ten minutes. Including in recent times, in addition to the battery swap for its own use, Weilai should be more eye-catching in addition to its cooperation with Geely and Changan. These two modes trigger a change in demand for batteries, which in the case of super-rechargeable batteries, first of all, require a large current. As mentioned earlier, based on material technology and battery form, under the same circumstances, high-current charging is damaging to the battery, and now the technology is progressing very fast, especially in material technology, positive electrode, negative electrode, electrolyte, separator, including the shape and size of battery heat dissipation, and the current battery has a stronger and stronger ability to withstand large current. At the same time, in the case of 4C, the first thing we consider is how to make the heat of the battery smaller and able to withstand fast charging. At the same time, the heat generated during charging should be taken away through the cooling device in time. At the same time, in order to reduce the current, 4C fast charging should also make the battery system such as 800V, which will make huge changes to the entire shape of the battery in the future, including the capacity and size of the battery, and will also bring earth-shaking changes to the capital invested and the production line invested by the entire battery industry in the future.
Regarding the battery swap, we will release an action plan on battery swapping, the battery needs a longer life, I personally think that more scenarios for battery swapping are in the commercial field, combined with its energy storage needs, so this battery may need to be charged and discharged twice a day, six or seven hundred times a year, five or six thousand times in seven or eight years, and there are higher requirements for battery life, at least six thousand to eight thousand times of life. Similarly, there are new changes to the shape, capacity, and material system of the battery, and this change should extend to different genres. For the battery itself, fast charging and battery replacement, it is easy to make batteries and production lines, but it is actually very difficult to make them. When overcharging, everyone thinks of the first thing is the capacity of the power grid, whether the distribution network is enough, and how many overcharging stations can be had. You go to increase capacity, and you know that if you go to add a transformer, what kind of procedures and what kind of time, including when you go to take down a piece of land and add such a large transformer, it is a very cumbersome process, and you can't overcharge it quickly, and you can't be in a hurry. In contrast, battery swapping is slightly simpler in this regard, which is the advantage of battery swapping. However, the disadvantages of battery swapping, the new capital invested, the greater investment, and the reliability of the battery swapping device. So these two infrastructures, the execution will not be so fast. The process of fast battery charging, including the charging station, is not achieved overnight, and we may still focus on slow charging and overcharging as an auxiliary.
In terms of battery swapping, I personally believe that vehicles in some commercial fields are still more promising, because its use scenarios are more frequent, and the investment can be recovered as a comprehensive form of energy supplement.
Including optical storage and charging, it is also possible to make a new commercial format for optical storage and charging in the future, such as photovoltaic charging, which also has new shopping and catering combined.
Energy replenishment is a complex topic because people's needs are diverse, sometimes they want to be fast, sometimes they want to save money. In terms of efficiency, we don't care about this money, based on various needs, whether it is optical storage and charging, the charging and discharging needs are also diversified. Similarly, this demand is a good thing for batteries, companies that focus on fast charging will do fast charging, and companies that focus on battery swapping will study battery swapping on another system. I think everyone is a good format, not that they are all crowded into one line.
Wu Hui:Finally, I would like to ask Mr. Hu Mingxiang, because when sodium electricity rises to 600,000 yuan in lithium carbonate, sodium electricity can reduce the cost. And the application of sodium-ion batteries in energy storage will also place great hopes, which may be a small power at the beginning, and later also hope that the entire sodium electricity will be widely used in energy storage, because sodium electricity can make the cost very cheap after all. Mr. Hu also gave us an outlook on the role played by sodium electricity in the integration of optical charging and storage.
Hu Mingxiang, chairman of Shenzhen Pangu Naxiang New Energy Co., LtdHu Mingxiang:The logic of sodium electricity generation is very deterministic, about two aspects: one is the macro level, just now the leaders of Minmetals also analyzed the future situation of lithium carbonate, from the macro level, sodium carbonate at least will not have this problem, to a certain extent, it can be expected to see the entire sodium electricity ** will gradually decline, to the future pricing of the entire industrial chain and the stability of the industrial chain is of great help. The second is from the perspective of practical application, in the context of optical storage, charging and discharging, there will be a lot of demand, it can be seen that the demand and existing technology can not be fully met, so some scenarios need new technology. In the actual application scenarios of sodium electricity, such as the overcharging just mentioned, this example alone is not limited to this one, because the impact of overcharging on the entire power grid and the large current on the power grid is relatively large, but sodium electricity has a relatively good characteristic, and the fast discharge performance is very good. If sodium electricity is used as a charging transfer station, it can quickly achieve high-power output under the configuration of a small amount of energy, which can be extended in other aspects, including UPS. Of course, there are some scenarios, such as low temperature, safety, and more importantly, safety, because safety is difficult to quantify, but with the dense grid connection of many energy storage, especially in the case of high-current energy storage grid-connected, the problem of safety will be raised to a higher height, so the application space of sodium electricity in this area is very broad.
Wu Hui:In fact, there are several key indicators for the application of sodium electricity in energy storageHow many years from now will it be able to achieve its cost, energy density, or circularity indicators?Is there a prospect?
Hu Mingxiang:There are definitely expectations. Just like lithium batteries, there must be many categories, not a battery. We do sodium electricity, but also divided into three directions: one is similar to lead-acid substitution, in the case of ensuring safety, if you want to do lead-acid substitution, the most direct obstacle is cost, must be reduced by improving energy density.
Returning to the field of energy storage, more attention is paid to the cost of use, as well as the input cost and cycle life. Taking energy storage as an example, around 2026, the BOM cost of the entire battery cell will be 0$2 per watt-hour. A single cell, which is also the best data, through accelerated experiments, 10,000 cycles is very promising.
Wu Hui:Listening to Hu Mingxiang and Mr. Hu, the cost of sodium electricity and cost is 02 yuan per watt hour, energy density and circulation can also be very high, so it is still very promising. Optical storage charging and replacement, just introduced to the energy storage project, surplus electricity can be connected to the Internet, sold to the State Grid, may I ask Wang Kunpeng Wang of the special call This business model has been in the actual process?
Wang Kunpeng:This is a very good question, photovoltaic power generation is not all surplus power on the large power grid. First of all, for the charging network microgrid, local consumption and local use are the best scenarios. In the whole process of power dispatching, the original waste of wind, solar and water, especially photovoltaic, can give priority to charging new energy vehicles as a certain energy storage carrier. If there is still a surplus, it can be stored through energy storage. What are you doing with this electricity?The first step is not to meet the needs of other industrial equipment and daily electricity, or to charge the vehicle through the energy storage equipment when the vehicle increases, because at this time, DC charging to the vehicle is very convenient, and there is no need to connect to the Internet to reduce energy loss. However, in terms of photovoltaic power generation in terms of energy storage, with the larger the number of new energy vehicles, the cost of mobile energy storage is getting lower and lower, and the existing industrial and commercial energy storage will undergo great changes, the cost of vehicle mobile battery energy storage is getting lower and lower, and the cost of the entire echelon battery will be lower when it is used. Therefore, the photovoltaic surplus power of the charging network will not be directly connected to the large power grid. But how charging stations participate in the trading of the grid is a new model. In the first half of this year, the financial report was released, and the charging network of Telai has participated in the scheduling of peak regulation and frequency regulation of more than 20 provincial power grids, and participated in more than 70 million kilowatt hours of electricity through peak shaving and valley filling and auxiliary services of the power grid. If your stations and microgrids participate in the frequency and peak regulation and ancillary services of this grid, the revenue generated can be shared.
Wu Hui:A few years ago, when discussing energy storage, we have been talking about the clarity of the business model, and there are not enough profit points. Next, we are committed to the unification of standards, especially the unification of battery swap standards. In addition, the industry still needs to reduce the cost of electricity, the cost of batteries, and the cost of energy storage systems. A clear business model, coupled with very cost-effective products, directly reduces the cost of electricity, so that the essence of the commercial operation of the entire charging and storage is revealed, and there is still more room for the development of the entire energy storage at that time. From now when various enterprises invest in local enterprises, they used to have local photovoltaic indicators, and now they want energy storage indicators, and it can be seen that the future energy storage market is more and more promising.
The above views are based on the shorthand of the forum and have not been reviewed by the speakers themselves. ）