Interviewing Liu Zhenyun and Meng Fei is an extremely interesting thing. One is a great writer known for his humor, and the other is a sharp and profound "famous mouth", both of whom are masters of "speaking".
The two of them sat together, "pulling and talking", witty words, and wit, which was described as a cultural person's cross talk, which was probably good. Although the age difference between the two is more than ten years, they have become friends who have known each other for many years because they are rare opponents who can get together to "talk nonsense".
This time, Liu Zhenyun was invited by Meng Fei to become a resident guest of "Must Come". The two uncles took a group of young artists to travel from Hohhot, Chengdu, Nanjing to Shanghai and Dali, and enjoyed the unique local culture in the in-depth tour. The two, who usually have a rare time to get together, took this opportunity to chat happily inside and outside the show.
During the recording of the program, I had a two-day in-depth contact with them in Dali, and I was "dizzy" and unsatisfied.
"hitchhiker".
In Dali in November, the morning was very cold, at 9 o'clock in the morning, Liu Zhenyun and Meng Fei arrived at the hotel café we agreed on, Liu Zhenyun was dressed in a simple dark blue thick coat, Meng Fei was wearing a thick jacket and a baseball cap, and sat down face to face with me. After asking for a pot of green tea to moisten your mouth, our conversation officially began.
Teacher Liu, Teacher Meng, what are you focusing on now?"I threw up an everyday topic and tried to get closer to each other.
Liu Zhenyun said leisurely: "You know that Hua Rong in "Water Margin" is a deputy governor, at that time the Song Dynasty was a civil official system, and military generals were subject to the constraints of civil officials, so Hua Rong is a deputy governor.
This answer left me scratching my head for a moment. Meng Fei saw that I was puzzled, and quipped: "He talks around, you bear with me." ”
Liu Zhenyun. After a pause, Liu Zhenyun continued to speak leisurely, from Hua Rong to Song Jiang, from Song Jiang to Lin Chong, he likes to smile with a ridiculous smile when he speaks, and when he talks about Xingtou, he will occasionally knock on the table with his knuckles, or turn his head to look at the void, pausing for two or three seconds. After five or six minutes, I realized that what he was going to talk about was that he didn't have the eighteen martial arts of the heroes of Liangshan, so he still only did a good job of writing **.
As if as a footnote to Liu Zhenyun's words, Meng Fei immediately said: "I understand what Mr. Liu means, this is like some people opening a noodle restaurant, making some money, thinking about expansion, looking for capital to open a chain store." Compared with Liu Zhenyun's unhurried speaking style, Meng Fei's speed of speech is urgent, and when he speaks, he likes to put his index finger on his chest and wave it as if he wants to draw the shape of language, and then he leads the topic to himself, "But I don't seem to be this kind of character." I'm like a donkey pulling a mill, round and round, turning for more than ten years, and now I will probably retire like this. He expressed the same meaning as Liu Zhenyun.
This seems to be a way of working, in fact, it is a work attitude, it seems to be a work attitude, it is actually a life attitude, it seems to be a life attitude, it seems to be a life attitude, it seems to be a life cognition, it is actually a cognition of people. Regarding Meng Fei's self-evaluation, Liu Zhenyun immediately gave a response of "one sentence top 10,000 sentences", looked at Meng Fei, raised his head, and waited for the other party's approval.
Meng Fei said: "There are also analogy sentences." Liu Zhenyun responded with a smile: "The sentence seems to be more literate." ”
Meng Fei. This kind of dialogue scene is repeated in the conversation with the two of them. Just like Liu Zhenyun wrote in the article "Yanjin and Yanjin", when Yanjin people meet every day, they never respond with serious words, but greet them with jokes. The conversation between the two of them was quite interesting. If you talk to them with precise and direct expectations, it's easy to be overwhelmed by such a ridiculous way of speaking.
To some extent, the reason why they can become friends is precisely because the two can "talk". In Liu Zhenyun's view, there are two kinds of friends, one is friends formed consciously, and they often get together to talk about things. The other is to become friends unconsciously, who may not meet often, but can always talk happily.
The friendship between Liu Zhenyun and Meng Fei belongs to the latter. Liu Zhenyun, who grew up laughing at "If You Are Honest, Do Not Disturb", and Meng Fei first met at a friend's dinner, and the two chatted and found that they were very good at talking to each other, and they always didn't talk about business when they got together, and they "talked nonsense" as much as possible.
Just like playing chess, it is interesting to "meet the opponent in chess", and "talking nonsense" also needs to be in a hurry, and you can only have a taste when you come and go. Liu Zhenyun and Meng Fei are such "equal opponents", and their excellent cultural and language skills make the two of them very interesting.
Say one sentence, and the other person will immediately know the second or third sentence, and you can even skip directly to the sixth sentence. Being able to have this kind of jumping conversation is the main reason why Liu Zhenyun and Meng Fei, who love to talk and can talk, cherish each other.
Stills from "Must Come".
The master can always understand the other party's off-string sound. Liu Zhenyun doesn't like to socialize, the two have a meal, and he will use Yanjin-style questioning to inquire: "Xiao Meng, will you be happy when we drink and drink, and if you talk to someone, just call him over?"”
Meng Fei understood as soon as he heard it, this was because Liu Zhenyun didn't want to turn this meal into entertainment, so he told him euphemistically. So he gave him a guarantee: "There is no one else in the room except for the waiter in and out." ”
After meeting, the two often chatted heartily for two or three hours, and after turning their heads, they forgot what they had talked about. In Meng Fei's view, this is the most hearty enjoyment, "I don't remember anything, I just remember happiness." ”
Do you know what's better?Liu Zhenyun said to me, "He came to Beijing to have dinner with me, and he never had to pay for it." Then he added: "I continue to succeed, which shows Mr. Meng's honesty;If you realize that you still keep entertaining, you can see Mr. Meng's character. ”
Meng Fei took the opportunity to fight back: "Haven't you reflected on your character?" ”
I think it's more generous to give this kind of opportunity to be a human being to a friend. Liu Zhenyun shot back with a smile.
As the conversation progressed, I gradually removed my identity as an "interviewer" and began to enjoy the "unobtrusive" way of talking. This "out of tune" is both a speaking Xi and an expression strategy, and both of them are very good at using this "out of tune" to dispel seriousness, and then generate new seriousness from it. What is dissolved is the dignified appearance of false appearance;What is produced is a vivid personality and vitality. Some interesting content is often vividly expressed in this kind of nonsense.
In the show, Liu Zhenyun always talks to Meng Fei naturally.
In the program "Must Come", they traveled all over the country together, but Liu Zhenyun still did not forget to promote his hometown Yanjin. In the Q&A part of the show, the staff asked Liu Zhenyun where he would most like to recommend everyone to goHe replied without hesitation: Yanjin.
Yanjin is not only Liu Zhenyun's hometown, but also the core geographical space of his life. The two chapters of "One Sentence Top 10,000 Sentences" are "Out of Yanjin" and "Back to Yanjin", which uses the allusion of "Exodus" in the Bible, and also gives Yanjin an epic temperament;The new ** "One Day and Three Autumns" released two years ago also revolves around the stories of all kinds of ordinary people in Yanjin.
So I asked him what the geographical space of Yanjin meant to his creation.
Liu Zhenyun leaned over me and said solemnly, "Yanjin has made a big move recently. ”
Just as I was about to record carefully, the following words made me cry and laugh: "Mr. Meng is ready to rent two or three acres of land in our Xilaozhuang to start spring plowing and autumn planting, and go deep into the grassroots!."Then he began to talk about how he contacted the village chief, and how the village chief prepared to entertain Meng Fei and a series of follow-up matters.
While I was still discerning the fiction in these words, the conversation turned to the story of their village of "New York, London, and Paris."
Meng Fei and Liu Zhenyun.
Mr. Liu said he had a cousin who gave birth to three children, named New York, Paris and London. He often told others that his villages include New York, Paris and London, and others exclaimed: "Mr. Liu, you said this so profoundly, you mean that the world is in your village, and your village is in the world." ”
No, there are really children in our village who are called that, and they run around the village every day. He said that the village radio station (he did not forget to interject: "Teacher Meng is suitable to work here") often broadcasts what mistakes were made in New York yesterday and was beaten, and what joy was spilled in London today and was also beaten.
Meng Fei said at this time: "The name of this couple is interesting, New York was beaten, and London wanted to help, but it was also beaten." Cow, play with the world in the palm of your hand. ”
The two entered each other's familiar magnetic field again, and laughed. Seeing that the topic was developing in the direction of derailment, Liu Zhenyun suddenly turned to answer my question head-on: "This is Yanjin, and intervention is very important for writers. If you just write about Yanjin, it is at most a vernacular literature, and it has no meaning for the writer. Just like the priest Lao Zhan who came from outside in "One Sentence Top 10,000 Sentences", Lao Zhan left and Lao Meng, and Yanjin would have vitality, which is the importance of intervening. ”
This reminds me of an article he wrote earlier, which mentioned: "If you want to write about Yanjin, you must have an injection of factors other than Yanjin, that is, the emergence of an intervener." Who came to Yanjin and activated the five elements and eight works and all kinds of Yanjin factors and factors, and many factors and factors were quantum-entangled, which is important. It's a matter of artistic structure. ”
The same meaning, expressed through "speaking", is not only interesting, but also has a long meaning.
The insistence of the expressor
Compared with Liu Zhenyun's allegorical expression, Meng Fei speaks more sharply and directly, often telling some simple and unpretentious truths. However, he is well versed in the way of speaking, and he is not only honest, but also old and spicy and familiar.
When I tried to dig into his normal life, he bluntly said, "Interviewing me will make you very frustrating". He described himself as a "semi-retired layman" whose usual hobbies are going out, drinking, and eating. ”
It is not difficult to feel his honesty from this answer, but such a "one-shot stabbing to the end" also invisibly blocked the possibility of me continuing to dig deeper.
Meng Fei. 52-year-old Meng Fei has found a world in which he can easily swim. Programs, pick what interests you;Live at your own comfortable pace. When I want to speak, I have a "nonsense partner" like Liu Zhenyun to talk about it, and when I don't want to speak, I retreat to the vast spiritual world and think quietly.
He is often advised to step out of his comfort zone and challenge new fields, and he has his own justifiable rhetoric about this: "I have struggled for most of my life, and I finally got into my comfort zone, why do I have to go out?"”
However, leisure does not mean slackness, and as a "celebrity", he has a unique and solid set of insights into his place in the world.
Meng Fei said: "Throughout thousands of years of human history, there are only a handful of people who can provide ideas to the world, such as Socrates, Plato, Confucius, and Kant. Further down, there are people who can provide stories, such as Liu Zhenyun, who can put their thoughts into the story, which is also very remarkable. But at my level, I can't even provide a story, so I can only wait and provide a good expression. ”
In his opinion, the role of the host is to provide a new language specification, "If you open your mouth and shut up in this line of work are Internet hot words, what is breaking defense, city walk, and other people say exactly the same thing, then why should others watch your host?."”
Meng Fei is in the program "Must Come".
When the topic gradually turned to "expression", the conversation between the three of us changed from the previous "out of tune" to become serious and serious.
Meng Fei said with concern that homogeneous expressions are eroding the industry of hosting, and many new entrants do not have the awareness and ability to shape expressions, and the lack of independent expression will eventually lead to a lack of insights, "When you really have an opinion on a thing, you will suddenly find yourself a minority in the crowd." Being in the minority means not being safe. At this time, many people will choose to give up their opinions, blend in with the crowd, and gain a sense of security. ”
However, a good opinion should be the core competitiveness of a person who speaks, and sometimes he will urgently remind him, but few people will echo it.
I echoed that when expressions become more and more homogeneous, independent expression requires more courage. Liu Zhenyun immediately corrected my statement, "The important thing is not courage, but courage."
In his opinion, it is more important to know how much weight your understanding has and to know that you have the confidence to stick to your own opinions. "When you encounter a conflict of opinions, you should come forward to fight, it is better to publish your opinions in the right place", the way he is a ** family is to sink his views into **.
Meng Fei talks about his social experience.
All thinking people are mavericks, not necessarily successful. Confucius, Socrates and other philosophers may not be accepted by the people at that time, but they can be accepted by history, time, and life. "True creativity ultimately falls on the level of life, transcending differences and arguments of opinion, and penetrating the barriers of people, societies, and ideologies. The expressor should have a more far-reaching vision.
Meng Fei said very simply: "I'm this age, what I said would be great if others happened to like it, and if I didn't like it, I wouldn't change it." He already has a transparent understanding of expression, if some of his expressions have nowhere to be placed, then he is not at ease, "not everything needs to be placed".
I asked them if they weren't worried that their expression would be misunderstood. Liu Zhenyun replied: "Misunderstanding will not harm a person, but attaching importance to misunderstanding will harm others." You're such a person, and suddenly someone says you're a different person, but you still value it, and that's a problem. ”
Being misunderstood is a form of humor, he added.
Competitive "old man's group".
As a writer, Liu Zhenyun rarely participates in variety shows, and when it comes to the reason for participating in "Must Come" this time, he said that it is mainly because of the invitation of his good friend Meng Fei, and he also finds this show interesting and interesting.
These two cultural people get together, pick some niche and cultural places, and strive to play depth and level.
Taking the opportunity of the show, Liu Zhenyun was able to meet a lot of people who are usually difficult to see, "It is said that writers want to go deep into life, and if you want to go deeper, you don't have a chance, and people won't let you in." ”
Liu Zhenyun. But on this trip, he met a poet named "Hugo" on the Hulunbuir prairie, and dealt with two young artists who had been in it for 7 years in the deep mountains of Yunnan.
He describes such a brief encounter with others as a kind of "shallow life", as opposed to the so-called "deep life". Because he believes that the so-called in-depth is precisely an arrogant gesture, and good writers are often people who are immersed in life.
For Meng Fei, "Must Come" provides him with an opportunity to speak freely. In other programs, Meng Fei always has to restrain himself from speaking, either the tone of the show does not allow him to say what he wants to say, or the opponent can't catch his words, and there is always something not fun.
But with Liu Zhenyun, he can speak heartily. Meng Fei is a well-informed traveler, and he has a lot of anecdotes, stories and other talking points in his stomach, no matter what he says about customs and people, wild history and miscellaneous conversations, Liu Zhenyun can always skillfully take over the conversation and push the conversation forward. Meng Fei said with a smile, "I am responsible for providing materials, and Mr. Liu is responsible for summarizing and improving." ”
When playing in the ancient city of Weishan, the two of them talked about each other, from the plaque of the city tower to the obituary culture of the locals, and analyzed the history and humanities of the ancient city of Weishan clearly.
The program team asked what was the difference in this tour, and Liu Zhenyun replied that there was a teacher Meng Fei by his side this time.
The staff of the program team were worried at first that the two uncles would have a generation gap with other young artists, and they would not be able to spark. But unexpectedly, the "old man group" formed by the two of them was more active than anyone else, and even showed a strong "competitive spirit".
In the show, one of Liu Zhenyun's big hobbies is to "quarrel" with others, and when others are speechless by themselves, they become proud and show a winner's smile. And when he was refuted, while he was helpless, he would "quietly write down" the account and wait for the opportunity to make up for it.
In a cooking activity, Liu Zhenyun thought that a Chongqing dish was a little oily. When Meng Fei heard this, while barbeconing, he started the "daily loss of Liu": "I think you have begun to forget your roots, I remember that you said that you missed Peking University and loved to eat the pot collapsed tofu in the canteen, because the tofu was fried, the oil and water were relatively large, and after eating at noon, you could also make another bowl of rice and mix it in the evening, but now you start to dislike the oil." ”
Liu Zhenyun was so speechless that he could only say "I am very sad" about his "forgetting his roots".
Meng Fei was very satisfied with his "attack", and even told me to write it into the manuscript. After more than half an hour had passed, Meng Fei served his roasted corn and asked him how it tasted, and Liu Zhenyun shot back leisurely: There is less oil. A short and concise counterattack strike, reversing the "defeat" in one fell swoop.
Meng Fei, Liu Zhenyun and the guests of the show.
In the process of recording the program, both of them retained the usual "Xi" of cultural people - withdrawal. When the program transitions or pauses the recording, unlike other people who talk in groups, Liu Zhenyun is Xi accustomed to quietly leaving the crowd, quietly pacing and thinking, the people in the program team have taken this Xi for granted, and Meng Fei often does not say a word, wanders around, and picks up his mobile phone from time to time to take pictures - this is one of his well-known hobbies.
Recording a variety show is a very physically demanding thing, recording until midnight in the morning and not taking care of eating is a Xi thing, but both of them showed strong energy and a humble attitude, cooperated with all the requirements of the staff, and politely agreed to those who came to take photos and sign autographs.
There is a detail that I remember vividly: when we walked out of the hotel café, we met the hotel proprietress waiting at the door, and the two stepped forward to greet her a few words, at this time, Meng Fei took the initiative to ask: Can I take a photo with you?Liu Zhenyun then said: Can I join together?Seeing the happy look of the proprietress can understand that they have fulfilled her wish "beyond expectations". The thoughtfulness of the two is evident from this.
At the end of each episode, there is a night talk session, where the guests sit down together to talk about their thoughts and feelings at the end of the day. This is the link where Liu Zhenyun and Meng Fei can give full play to their strengths, and at this time, the background of the two as cultural people is fully revealed.
Meng Fei and Liu Zhenyun.
Under their guidance, the topic has changed from entertainment and funny, gossip and fun to "independent thinking", "marriage and family" and even "death".
When talking about strong feelings, Meng Fei always quipped: The ratings are there!But there is no doubt that in the end, everyone has something to gain and end the night with some thoughts and feelings.
Meng Fei said to me, "A good thinker may not have good thoughts, but a good thinker must have good expression." This quote can be seen as the reason why they did this show together: to speak interestingly and to say something meaningful. In a sense, this is the self-consciousness of the two of them as expressors.